I haven't heard from Maedi lately, so I'm not sure what's going on. I do know that he needed some upfront cash to pay for a year of hosting in advance, but other than that, I don't know.

Its my knowledge too, we need upfront cash to pay for a year now to get the server.

I would say we need a second Paypal account, were the money for the switch can be deposited,
in addition to the current existing Paypal account in order to pay current costs.

At http://macintoshgarden.org/about#comment-5407 Mycatisbigfoot wrote:

You guys can use my idisk,

Its mycatisbigfoot

It has read and write, I have 17GB on it

Great, we could need further download locations.

Bolkonskij, thank you very much for you donations

I will start a Pledgie fund, which will replace the PayPal donate button at the bottom of the website. And I'll cope with the server costs alone for a little while....

I noticed the new donate button, that's great!

Like the Lemmings game,
Let's Go!

No torrents on the new server, right? because i Don't like torrents.

Does it show my real name when I donate? I dunno if I want that...

@watchsmart: I don't think so; of course, Maedi will know your name ...

@nmz502: That's something we'll decide once we have the server. Torrents are an option, but they will be much more reliable.

@Maedi: could you email me with an update on the situation?

Hi Balrog. I'll answer here for everyone's benefit.

@Watchsmart, If it does, I'll probably be able to turn it off.

Torrents will have to be employed on the new server if we want to host files larger than say 400mb's. Otherwise bandwidth costs will rise considerably.

Let's break down the costs:

Last month the MacGarden website itself (html, css, images and manuals) used 165GB of bandwidth. A couple of months back S3 (games and apps) used 500GB's. Games were limited to 400mbs in size.

Current bandwidth = 500GB + 165GB = 665GB

Things to consider
- Unique visits per month: 20,000
- Low ratio of 400mb games

Leaseweb gives us 4000GB's bandwidth. For 12 months hosting it will cost €564,00 euro (Not just 500 USD just as in the Pledgie).

Projected costs
- Current unique visits per month is 24,000 and this is continuing to rise
- Higher ratio of circa 400mb games

I'm guessing that during the 'Current bandwidth' time period, there were only a few 300 - 400mb games. Even with this low ratio, bandwidth costs sky rocketed when these files were downloaded. (When I disabled downloading of these large games, S3 bills went from 80USD a month down to 20USD).

So I can imagine that if we reintroduce the ability to download circa 400mb games, as the ratio of these big files increases, and as the visits per month reaches 30,000. We could easily reach 2000GB's bandwidth per month. Files larger than 400mb would definitely have to be torrents. Torrents may be required for files above 200mb's, that way we can even consider a cheaper host with less bandwidth such as Codero.

€564,00 euro still has to be found every year. Codero offers a plan at $864.00 USD and in monthly intervals which is worth looking into.

We'll try to figure out a way to let games under a certain limit be direct download and those over as a torrent. There's also an option we haven't discussed, people pay to download?

There's also an option we haven't discussed, people pay to download?

Then let's discuss it. I see nothing wrong with big files being downloable only by members with premium accounts, as long as they have the option to mirror the files and post the link. That way you can pay the bills and leechers can still be happy. Everybody wins (I guess).

Well, as a matter of fact, that has been mentioned before on this thread:

http://macintoshgarden.org/forum/cost-of-hosting-site

but I'll repeat what I wrote on August 23th because I am willing to pay to keep this site Alive and well..

How about charging $1.00 Dollar a Month per member?, to anyone who wants to download great software,
it's ONLY $12.00 a year and we get ALL this software! what a bargain!..
( Probably a lot of users may want to hang me for this... )

...But if you are looking for solutions, I remember Balrog saying that we are about 600 registered users, and even with 1/3 of us, at $1 dollar each a month per member should cover for the hosting expenses and solve technical problems,

and You don't need a credit card to have a PayPal account
(I have one and I don't have Credit cards)

but even if the members don't want a Paypal account, in the States is a lot easier to pay for stuff and services with the money-orders and the Unmatched world class Postal service,
(believe me, I wish we had that ruthless efficiency of services here in Mexico)

I lived many years and graduated in California and I know how everything works in the U.S.
so honestly, I don't think there are excuses for not paying ONE SINGLE DOLLAR.

as I said, this is just another option, but in the end, this is the ONLY way to keep macintoshgarden
independent and ALIVE!

- Cheer up, Amigos! .............And break a buck

Well in my humble opinion, i don't have credit cards or paypal, and i would be happy to use torrents if it meant the site was kept free to download from, if people want direct download, they can pay for it, if people want free downloads, then the can use torrents.

Just keep in mind, not every one has money.

I agree Euryale and I think it's not too much to ask everyone to chip in one dollar per month. However, there could be legal problems with that and I'm not sure if Maedi & Balrog are eager to risk something, since at least one of them is personally liable.

You may be right. I'm no lawyer, but I think that legally speaking this site is a non-profit organization. If it begins charging money, even if it's for the bandwidth and not the software, then its legal status could change. In other words, Maedi could pass from being a Mac enthusiast to software pirate and trying to prove the contrary might not be easy. So, premium accounts might not be the best idea after all.

Pay-per-download has the potential to create legal issues, which we wouldn't want. Ideally we should try to get people to donate (any maybe those people will receive extra seeding credit, for torrents).

564,00 euros per year is about $69 USD per month. This is not that much more than we're currently paying, but the money has to come from somewhere (and is required up-front, in advance).

Torrents would save us a good bit, but this will require proper management, and seeding requirements. It is something we can do though.

Actually I didn't mean a pay-per-download, but merely a $1 USD Monthly fee per-Membership
to access full benefits from MacGarden, the Downloads will still be free (from Torrents)
that would make Macgarden free from any liability since we won't be paying for downloads or software,

also you can have both, Donations and Paid Fees accounts,
in case the Income fees go above expected, just return/invest that extra $$ to de Donations fund
to make them deductible from taxes. (I guess)

I'd rather have a system based on seeding ratios. People who donate will just get some free upload credit. This would be fair to everybody.
Monthly fees would still make us liable.

In any case, donations can NOT be made tax-deductible.

Ok Balrog, seeding Ratios, it's a good idea (more Proportional to everybody)

Charging for the cost of transfer is not the same as charging for the software. If that's all you're charging for, then there is no legal issue.

I think we should maybe not host some of these newer games.

I think THAT is just as likely to produce legal issues. A lot of people are still making a lot of money from, say, FALLOUT and they might not really like that the full version is available here. Ditto for a few dozen other large games.

Just my two cents.

" I think we should maybe not host some of these newer games."

I agree.

The problem is not the game's date of release but its size and popularity. Dark Forces is fourteen years old and yet it had to be archived. As for Fallout, I say it's abandonware. Both MacPlay and Black Isle Studios are gone (Mumbo Jumbo bought the MacPlay name, but they're not selling old MacPlay games) and that pretty much sums it up.

You're right. My objection is not based on a definition of abandonware. And it is not moral or anything like that. It is just practical. I'm pretty sure that other sites like Abandonia have been served with orders to stop sharing newer games. I doubt the lawyers will really care that these files are for the Mac platform. I'm pretty sure that they will come for us, eventually.

If that happens, then we remove the download link for the game in question and move on. But I seriously doubt it will happen. The Mac platform is just too small and the Mac abandonware scene is even smaller.

Good Idea, but don't forget, 26,000 vistors a month and you could get pranksters. . . . . . .

@Bolkonskij @IIGS_User @nmz502:
Take a look at the bottom of every page. There is a way to report copyright issues. I've already responded to one.

@Maedi: There may be issues with LeaseWeb; we should look at alternatives.

About newer games: We need moderators to make these decisions, and a set of clearly defined rules. The original publishers do not make money on used sales. Re-makes are a problem though (for us).

I've kind of always wondered if it wouldn't turn out that the site has to go to something like the old one, where uploads had to be approved by moderators. Even so, there would have to be something resembling a consensus on what would be approved.

Edit: Did I said something? Nah...

@Balrog @Attila: the first step to take, in order to make any move further on, is to discuss, evaluate and establish the rules for the development of TMG.

IMHO, of course