From downloading file to creating a floppy for use on Macintosh SE FD/HD question...

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2013, November 11 - 2:55am

macattak

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From downloading file to creating a floppy for use on Macintosh SE FD/HD question...

Hello, and I apologize in advance because I'm sure this question comes up often and the answer is probably in a sticky somewhere. I know spoon feeding info isn't popular on most forums. However...

This site offers free game files for older macs... that I get. I've managed to downloaded a few and uncompressed them. They are now on my MacBook Pro desktop. My plan is to use a USB floppy drive... take a game file (as it is) and copy it onto a SONY 1.4 MB High Density floppy disk. Then I plan to insert the disk into my Macintosh SE FD/HD and attempt to install the file onto the computer.

Am I on the right track so far?

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2013, November 11 - 10:45am

24bit

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The procedure you described was working until MacOS 10.5.
Leopard was the last Mac OS capable of writing HFS floppies.
What is your MBP´s OS?

Assuming you are on 10.6 or higher, one possible way is this:
Copy you stuffed (sit) files to a FAT32 floppy and take it to your SE.
Copy the .sit to the SE´s HDD and expand it there.
Be sure to have PC-Exchange on the SE and a Stuffit Expander compatible with your .sit files.

In some cases it may be necessary to re-package .sit files for the SE on the MBP. This is best done inside the Mac emulator SheepShaver as SS can run Stuffit7.
Stuffit7 can handle a bunch of file types.

Stuffing again for the SE is best done with Stuffit 3.6 or similar.

On a side note: You may also split large files for several floppies and join them on the SE again with Stuffit 3.6.

2013, November 11 - 5:04pm

macattak

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Thanks for the reply. My MBP is running 10.8.5. ... so I guess it will be a bit more complicated afterall.

2013, November 11 - 5:10pm

IIGS_User

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For larger files, get Iomega Zip Drives and mediums (USB version for OS X and SCSI version for SE) .

2013, November 11 - 6:54pm

max1zzz

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there are programs that let you read and write hfs under 10.6/10.7/10.8, i can't rember the name off the top of my head but my old mbp had it installed

2013, November 11 - 11:15pm

(Reply to #5) #6

macattak

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Cool. If you ever think of the names of those programs, that would be awesome and most helpful.

2013, November 11 - 11:13pm

max1zzz

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i'll have a look around tommrow, i'm sure i can find it, i think one of them is called fusehfs, although i think that only works on 10.6

2013, November 11 - 11:48pm

macattak

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Would a SCSI CD-ROM drive work on my SE FD/HD (plug and play)? Or would I need to install software to make it work. Maybe I can use my MBP to copy the files onto a CD... then insert the CD into an SCSI drive, plugged into the SE. Assuming I was successful transferring the files that way, would I have any problems opening the files and playing the games?

Or how about a USB to SCSI converter/adapter used with a USB Floppy drive?

2013, November 12 - 12:21am

(Reply to #8) #9

macjames

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I would start by asking what OS version is on your SE? OS 7.x will make your life easier. While newer OSs like lion and up can't write HFS floppies they handle FAT perfectly. You would only need in your SE the PC Exchange control panel to read/write floppies formatted in FAT.

USB to SCSI adapters are crazy expensive and hard to find. I think the FAT solution it's the easiest and involves the less hardware (unless your files are over 1.4MB).

Burning CD's also has their problems. You must make sure you're burning them in HFS standard, otherwise they will be unreadable in your SE.

2013, November 12 - 1:20am

#10

macattak

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Macjames: I have OS 6.something in my SE FD/HD. I will explore the avenue you suggest... How do I go about formatting a FAT disk? And is PC exchange something that I will need to find and install on the SE, or is that already on there somewhere?

Clearly I am a computer idiot so please bare with me. LOL!

I also discovered a page that discusses the possibility of using a PC formatted disk on a PC to generate a disk which can be used on a MAC SE FD/HD... have you ever heard of this?

2013, November 12 - 10:19am

#11

24bit

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PC-Exchange was included with MacOS 7.5 but that version seems to be working down to MacOS 7.1.
That said, its an application on the SE side obviously.
MacOS 6 had its own way to read from PC floppies. A good starting point is here: http://www.ccadams.org/se/serial.html

It is also possible to run 10.5 Server in a virtual machine to write HFS floppies, if you want to go the floppy way - maybe a long shot:
Picture 1.png

I think I would try to connect MBP and SE via Terminal, a USB to serial adapter for the MBP would be needed of course. I never did that, so I would ask at 68kmla for the how to. FTP is the key I suppose.
Free FTP servers for OSX are available e.g. : http://jeanmatthieu.free.fr/pureftpd/

2013, November 12 - 2:25pm

#12

Daxeria

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Mac OS 6 and 7 each have their advantages on the SE: 7 has more features, 6 is much faster, and some software will only run on one or the other. If possible, I would install 7 in a separate System Folder and use System Picker to switch between the two.

2013, November 12 - 3:31pm

#13

macjames

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MacOS 6 didn't mount PC floppies, but had an application to transfer files between the floppy and your mac. I remember this application being included in the set of disks when i bought my macIisi back in 1990. I think it's mentioned in the links in the previous post by 24bit, but the name was Apple File Exchange if i remember correctly. I need to do some research to verify this.

2013, November 12 - 9:41pm

#14

macattak

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Thanks guys. I also have a PowerBook 170 for parts, but still functions. It has Mac OS 7. If I were to link up the 170 to the SE, could I somehow transfer Mac OS 7 over to the SE , thus upgrading the OS?

And which port do I use to link two macs for file sharing?

Edit: Replaced 'xxx 7' by Mac OS 7' - IIGS User

2013, November 12 - 10:44pm

(Reply to #14) #15

MikeTomTom

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Yes this would be possible. Port? without available ethernet ports, you can use the printer port (aka LocalTalk port) and PhoneNet connectors. If you don't have PhoneNet connectors, and you only want to network two Macs together, then you can make do with a Mac printer cable, to connect the two.

I've found these pages helpful in the past WRT networking old Macs together & old Macs to newer Macs: AppleTalk-ing - The Mac 512.

2013, November 12 - 11:01pm

#16

24bit

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Wich MacOS 7 are we talking about? (Best edit your posting to MacOS 7 for the bulldogs creeping around)
If you have a serial cable, connect it to both printer ports and select that port for LocalTalk.
Best install MacOS7 with a custom install "For every Mac" on the PB. Such a OS can be copied to your SE and should boot it.

From Control Panels open Users & Groups and create a new user for your SE.
Select the Mac volume to share and open Sharing from the File menu.
Enable read/write permissions for all users.
If everything went right, the shared Mac and the volume should show up in the SE´s chooser.

2013, November 12 - 11:29pm

#17

macattak

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Cool, That's what I thought (the printer port and cable) just wasn't sure. Great link! Thanks.

Another idea I'm toying with is buying an older PowerBook with an ethernet port... and link it to my MBP (if possible). Then I can just transfer the game files to, for example a Powerbook 540, and put them on floppies... then bring them over to the SE.

2013, November 13 - 12:21am

(Reply to #17) #18

macjames

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You have no idea how that helps! It doesn´t need to be strictly 680x0 like the 540 you mention, but it has to have a floppy built-in or module. Ehternet built-in on very old powerbooks was not a standard. Powerbook duos had an ethernet minidock which is difficult to get now. It's easier to get a mac with pcmcia/cardbus slot and get an ethernet card for it. Unless i have to transfer big files i do everything wireless. Orinoco/Lucent cards work on old macs like the powerbook 190, or on newer powerbooks like the G3 Wallstreet. I have tested this card on 190's, 1400's, 5300's, black G3 powerbooks before the pismo, on a powermac 7500/100 with a pci to cardbus adapter, even on a powerbook titanium. It´s an extremely flexible card and it's easy to get.

2013, November 13 - 12:00pm

(Reply to #17) #19

24bit

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Some vintage Mac with ethernet port could make a nice turntable between the MBP and your SE.
Apple decided to drop the old AppleTalk protocol years ago. (Thank you, Apple. )
Therefore it will not be possible to have your MBP as AppleTalk server.

Of course you might set up a FTP server, but it won´t be as easy going as AppleTalk.
Usually resource forks get lost on transfer, so you should use hqx for moving files or restore resource forks by hand on the vintage Mac. Not a big thing when you know what you are doing.

Another possibility is running a AppleTalk server in BasiliskII on your MBP as described here:
http://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8067

With BII on the MBP and a helper Mac as man in the middle it should work like this:
Download (and expand ?) games on the MBP
Move the game to a BasiliskII volume via the Unix folder in BII.
Access the AppleTalk server from your helper Mac via ethernet and store the game locally.
Switch networking on the helper Mac to Local Talk (serial)
Access the LocalTalk server from your SE and fetch your game.
Expand your game on the SE (if needed).

Note that there are also SD solutions available:
http://www.bigmessowires.com/macintosh-floppy-emu/
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=22164&p=219141&hilit=sd+sc...

2013, November 16 - 12:25am

(Reply to #17) #20

MikeTomTom

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Another idea I'm toying with is buying an older PowerBook with an ethernet port... and link it to my MBP (if possible). Then I can just transfer the game files to, for example a Powerbook 540, and put them on floppies... then bring them over to the SE.

Another option to toy with is an Ethernet solution. There were a few choices that shipped built for the SE/PDS slot, such as Asante MacCon+ SEET, Daynaport E/SE & 3Com Etherlink/SE and I would think these would be pretty rare to find.

Perhaps not quite as rare & offers far more adaptability (can be used with any Mac from the Plus to a IIfx), is the Asante EN/SC (Ethernet - SCSI) adaptor which plugs into the SCSI port of your Mac.

The Asante EN/SC adapter comes in a couple of flavors, a solid metal cased Asante EN/SC adapter, which offered a choice of 3 types of network connectors (AUI, BNC & RJ-45), a Mini version which (I think) you had only one choice of connector (BNC or RJ-45) plus a Micro version, which I think was for newer Macs (& not suitable for 68000 Macs).

I own the full (AUI, BNC & RJ-45) variety of this adapter and recommend that if you come across one in an auction, seriously consider bidding for it, if you own a Mac without an ethernet port, because it save a lot of time like the need for floppy swapping, etc.

Here's a some pix of this box: the Asante EN/SC adapter, the Asante Mini EN/SC adapter, Running on a Mac Plus, the Mini EN/SC again (German page with good pic), Asante EN/SC adapter (front & rear ports) and finally, a Youtube video of browsing the WWW with a Macintosh SE assisted by the Asante Mini EN/SC adapter (awesome)

2013, November 13 - 1:52am

#21

Belethor

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Great thread guys, I'm learning a lot!

Paul
Shout out to 24bit and Mike, thanks for the help guys!

2013, November 13 - 11:52pm

#22

macattak

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UPDATE:

I found an couple PC formatted floppy disks and used a PC to transfer the game files to the disk. I then brought the disk over to my PowerBook 145b, which has SSW 7.

Now here is where I am stuck, LOL Sorry for not being remotely Mac savvy... Apparently my PB is able to read the floppy via PC Exchange, But now what do I do? Also worth noting, the files are not compressed, should they be. I don't have Stuffit Expander on my PowerBook.

Once the files are on the Mac, how does one install a game file on it?

Edit: Replaced 'xxx 7' by 'SSW 7' - IIGS User

2013, November 14 - 10:03am

(Reply to #21) #23

MikeTomTom

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the files are not compressed, should they be.

On PC formatted floppies? Yes, if the files to be moved across are programs (Mac executable apps). You need to move compressed archives to the destination Mac's hard drive before extracting, if using PC formatted media as the transport. If not compressed as ".sit" at least in ".bin" or ".hqx" format. Any 68k Mac executable will be rendered DOA otherwise.

You'll need to run Stuffit on the PB 145b. As the 145b shipped with SSW 7.1, you will be able to install & run Stuffit Expander version 5.5, which is a good thing as this version will open most Stuffit compressed (.sit) files plus some others like .bin & .hqx etc.

Alternatively; You can move uncompressed files safely to your PB 145b & Mac SE from your PC via floppy disk. Here's how to, [Warning] small learning curve ahead:

Requires "HFVEplorer 1.3.1", see Download link in page.
And a command-line version of "The Unarchiver", grab the Windows version.

Run The Unarchiver via a command line window and have it decompress the file you want to move to your Mac to a folder on your PC. The command to use in The Unarchiver is: unar -k hfv your_files_name.sit

Using HFVExplorer create a new 1440k .HFV drive file to some location on your PC's hard drive, HFVExplorer will mount the drive file in its Explorer-like window. Then copy your extracted files into the mounted drive file via the HFVExplorer window. Copy mode here should be “Automatic, let the program decide,” with “Check for AppleDouble” checked.

Here's the walk-through for this, with some decent pics.

Once copied to the .HVF drive file, get HFVExplorer to write that drive file to floppy disk. It will overwrite any content on the floppy and you will then have a Mac formatted floppy with the files in a usable form to take to your PB 145b or SE.

If you're unfamiliar with using HFVExplorer, run your mouse cursor over the row of buttons near the top of HFVEplorer's window for some tool tips, you'll soon see the write to floppy button.

2013, November 15 - 1:11pm

(Reply to #23) #24

macattak

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"You'll need to run Stuffit on the PB 145b. As the 145b shipped with SSW 7.1, you will be able to install & run Stuffit Expander version 5.5,"

This would be great, but getting Stuffit onto my 145b possess the same challenge as getting game .sit files onto the 145b. I have a couple used PowerBook 520cs coming. Hopefully their Ethernet ports are working. If they are, I will hopefully be able to link one of them up to my MBP and transfer files from it including Stuffit, then from there copy the game .sit files to floppies.

2013, November 16 - 2:16am

(Reply to #29) #25

MikeTomTom

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@macattak: You have a PC with a floppy drive right?

I've put a copy of the StuffIt 5.5 installer into a zipped .HFV archive here (Rapidshare). All you need to do here is unzip the archive onto a PC, then use HFVExplorer 1.3.1 (linked above in post #23) to write the .HFV to a floppy disk and Stuffit Expander will then be available to install directly onto your PB 145b.

Assuming you've installed HFVExplorer, the steps for this are:

Unzip the .HFV to an easy to navigate to location on your PC.
Insert unlocked floppy disk into PC's floppy disk drive.
Start up HFVExplorer
Click the "Write floppy" button in HFVExplorer's window (4th button near top left of window)
A dialog window pops up with;

"Write a Volume file to floppy"
"Floppy Drive" [Letter] (usually A:)
"Volume file path", & to its right a small button, marked with ">>"

Click the button in the dialog marked [>>]
Navigate to where you unzipped the .HFV file, select its name and click [OK]
This falls back to previous dialog where you can now see the .HFV file name and path to it under the "Volume File Path" heading. Click [OK] again.
An Alert pops up warning you that you are "Ready to format. All old data from the floppy will be destroyed. Go on?" with buttons [Yes], [No].
Click [Yes] button and HFVExplorer commences to write the .HFV to the floppy disk.
When it alerts you that the copy has completed, remove the floppy and Quit HFVExplorer.

If all goes well, your floppy disk should now be Mac formatted and contain the Stuffit Expander installer, ready to be installed and used in your PB 145b

2013, November 14 - 4:27pm

#26

IIGS_User

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Hi, Macattack, please remember the words of 24bit above:

(Best edit your posting to MacOS 7 for the bulldogs creeping around)

2013, November 14 - 8:28pm

(Reply to #24) #27

macattak

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I don't get it. Did I not call it by it's correct nomenclature? What is a bulldog other than the breed of K-9?

And what does SSW stand for?

2013, November 14 - 11:17pm

(Reply to #25) #28

MikeTomTom

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@macattak: You may need to read through the forum thread here on Muso TNT Limited to understand why the admins are nervous about using the term "S*****m 7".

SSW? Its short for "System Software". Prior to Mac OS 7.6, the term "System Software" was officially used by Apple to describe the Mac OS versions. Such as, "System Software 7.0, System Software 7.5", etc.

They also used the shortened term "SSW" in their descriptions, as in "SSW 6.0.8, SSW 7.0.1, SSW 7.1" etc, etc.

2013, November 15 - 12:03am

#29

macattak

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Oh wow... my bad. Thanks for the info. System Software 7 it shall be from now on.

2013, November 15 - 12:08am

(Reply to #27) #30

MikeTomTom

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Mac OS 7 is acceptable too, as is SSW 7

2013, November 16 - 7:46pm

#31

FoxOnTheRun

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http://www.google.com/search?q=ethernet+to+localtalk+bridge

2013, November 22 - 12:19am

#32

macattak

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Thanks for the great ideas and methods. My latest attempt at trying to network an older computer to my MBP involved my newly acquired PowerBook 520c and an Ethernet transceiver. I used an Ethernet cable to connect both computers. The MBP apparently recognized the connection but there was no indication of a file sharing network on either computer that I was aware of. On the 520c I tried just about everything to my knowledge to establish a network... appletalk, chooser, TCIP/IP, etc. I know this has to work, I'm just doing something wrong.

2013, November 28 - 3:30pm

(Reply to #32) #33

FoxOnTheRun

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http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4700

2013, November 22 - 12:48am

#34

24bit

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Maybe try a FTP server (e.g. http://cyberduck.io/) on the MBP and Fetch or similar on the PowerBook.

2013, November 28 - 3:40pm

#35

macattak

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Is there no app out there that enables a modern mac to write to floppy disks?

2013, November 28 - 4:53pm

#36

max1zzz

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you could copy them to raw floppy images in mini vmac then use dd in terminal to write those to floppies

I had a look but can't find any software to write to hfs in 10.8, i know it exists for 10.6 and 10.7, but it looks like there is none for 10.8

2013, November 28 - 5:19pm

#37

24bit

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Could you be more elabortate about the procedure, Max?
I tried dd in 10.8.5 with DSKs and a Imation Super Drive, but I did not get far.
Such a write floppy hack would be helpful for many.

(My 10.5 VM does work nicely with the Imation of course.)

2013, November 28 - 5:25pm

#38

max1zzz

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should be as simple as:
dd if=/path/to/file of=/dev/diskX (X= whatever number the drive has been given)

the files need to be raw, anything fancy and it won't work

i haven't actually tried this (i managed to but what seems to be the only usb fdd that osx dosen't like)
but there is no reason it shouldn't work

i'll see if there are any cheap as usb fdd's on ebay atm, if there is i'll get one and test it

2013, November 28 - 5:29pm

#39

24bit

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RAW, Hm? No need to scip sectors or so?
How do you make raw in MiniVMac?

2013, November 28 - 5:36pm

#40

max1zzz

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there shouldn't be any need to modify the image

i can't think off the top of my head how to create them, but you should be able to find blank 1.44mb .dsk images on the web which would work fine

i just picked up one of those dell internal drives which also have a usb port on for the grand sum of £4, hopefully it'll work on osx so i can try it

2013, November 28 - 5:47pm

#41

24bit

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OK, thanks. I'll give it another go. Maybe Imation Super Drive is not the best starting point.
Four Pound sounds fair for a floppy drive.

2013, November 28 - 5:54pm

#42

max1zzz

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ok, here's how i would create the file, use dd to create a blank 1.4mb file:
dd if=/dev/zero of=/1440.dsk bs=1k count=1440

then format it with minivmac and copy your data

theoretically it should be ok with the Imation Super Drive more likely the image wasn't raw

2013, November 28 - 6:47pm

#43

24bit

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Creating the file and writing to it is no problem here, but copying is:
"Permission denied" No matter whether floppy is active in DU or not.

Edit: "sudo dd if=/1440.dsk of=/dev/disk3" did the trick for me. Floppy has to be de-activated (unmounted).
Now I must look whether my files are there….
Yes!
Perfect, someone must write a guide on Emaculation or…?

Edit2: This is awesome Max, you are our hero!
( CAPTCHA wont let me insert pictures no more. )

2013, November 28 - 7:25pm

#44

max1zzz

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good to hear it works

forgot that you had to unmount and use sudo, that always gets me when copying disks...

2013, November 28 - 11:20pm

#45

24bit

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I put together something here: http://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8208
Suggestions?

2013, November 28 - 11:43pm

#46

max1zzz

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Looks good to me, can't see anything wrong with it

2013, November 29 - 4:15pm

#47

24bit

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The floppy is fine so far and can be read with Basilisk II Build 142 without issues.

Now we need someone to confirm it working with a SE FDHD or similar, but I can't see why it should not work on vintage Macs just the same.

2013, November 29 - 11:12pm

#48

max1zzz

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hopefully i will get my new drive tommrow so i can test it out myself

if not i'll try with my current drive on linux

2013, November 30 - 12:25pm

#49

max1zzz

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I can confirm disks made in this way work on real macs, tested it on my LC II running 7.1

furthermore, using the command the other way round is a quick and easy way to copy real 1.4mb disks for use in emulation

2013, December 2 - 12:07am

#50

macattak

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I'm sorry... I'm just too stupid for all of this. LOL! If anyone is willing to copy some game files to disks for me I'll gladly pay you for them. I'll even send you the blank disks. I really just want UNINVITED, DEJA VU, and SHADOWGATE to install on my macs. My email is: bmxbuilder76@yahoo

2013, December 2 - 12:33am

#51

24bit

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Where in the world are you macattack?

It would be really simple to copy the files to floppy with dd, if the source files are on disk images MiniVMac can read. What kind of obstacles do you expect?