I certainly think that software updates for OS X applications written by third parties would benefit the community.
But not on anything other than a request basis, or we may be flooded with
- tat that nobody would ever really want (ie. Firefox v2.0.0.2, v2.0.0.3, etc. when all that is useful is v2.0.0.16), or
- updates that are still available for download from the original publishers / developers (ie. Apple, Virtual Programming, MacSoft, etc - who all maintain an excellent back-catalogue of patches and updates).

As we move into releases from 2000 onwards we also start to get into the realm of software that, although not readily available from the publisher, is READILY available from 2nd user sources - which is where I get nearly all of my stuff now. This essentially negates our primary, perhaps sole reason for hosting the software. Toast 6 Titanium can be bought on eBay UK today for £0.01. Toast 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 are all there also.

Just an opinion, but I never ever buy something that is not supported anymore, even if it's $1 on eBay (shipping to other countries is also very expensive these days). I just download it from wherever I can find it (like here on Macintosh Garden). That's what these sites are all about (still just my own opinion). It's not worth it to spend money on abandoned software, unless you are a serious collector or a determined purist. So that's why we need sites on the internet for anything that isn't supported anymore, whatever age or version of the software or OS versions it runs on. Software companies that don't like this will ultimately be viewed upon as greedy in the long run. I also try to share such software I come across if I have the chance, as a service to all the others that feel the same way as I do.

I can understand your opinion, but software must be truly abandoned before we can consider it for this site. Whether or not the software is currently supported or not, the publishers still hold the exclusive legal rights to distribute it, blindly ignoring that and hosting software here when we should know better is piracy and puts the site at extreme risk of legal action.

If a particular piece of software is not available on eBay.com today, try next week, try amazon ( 6 sellers today in the US ), try craigslist, try google. Again, just because someone doesn't want to pay for old software doesn't make it acceptable to pirate it. If you're unsure, ask before uploading. Don't assume because of its age, I've been caught out before as well, ie. Virtual Programming still sell all their back catalogue as digital downloads, numerous other publishers do the same also, or it's available via another mechanism, like Steam.

I thought MacGarden was ONLY for what it is considered CLASSIC, that means Mac OS
from OS 9 and downwards...

Mac OS X should be channeled to another group of people or niche on another different Web Site, otherwise we are gonna be flooded with requests for OS X software losing the TRUE purpose of this site of a certain group of people like us,we are here because we were looking for CLASSICS
even though many of us have the newest Macintosh (I just bought a brand new Mac Book)
now if we are talking of just Abandonware, then perhaps we could include abandonware for Windows as well.

Capische?

I'm with you, MCP. I've mentioned it here before - today we moan about the great software that was lost during the earlier years because there was no one to archive it. Now with early OSX software the same thing is happening - in 10 years from now we'll moan again. With the upcoming 10.7 Lion officially dropping support for PPC software, we can see the need for a project helping to archive (eventually!) all PPC Mac software.

Apart from the whole it-will-turn-MG-into-a-warez-site argument I believe it'd be wiser to create a whole new project for this OSX software instead of adding yet another few thousand entries to here. I don't know how the MacGarden admins think about it, but maybe they'd be willing to offer the "blueprints" for building a second MacGarden, this time OSX exclusive. Both sites could form a network and support each other - we could transfer some of the few OSX only software from here to there and vice-versa in terms of carbonized soft (in case something new pops up).

What do you think about it?

Well, OS X software should be able to find it's place here, but it may be too soon for most of it.
Titles like SpyHunter (which I paid full price for on release) are already here. It was dire, really dire and Aspyr have no trace of it on their site.
Then there's stuff like Rise of Nations from MacSoft, similar era, similar requirements, but all the patches are still available from MacSoft, it runs fine in OSX 10.5 (not tried OSX 10.6) and it's still readily available (macgold.co.uk have many, many Mac titles), so I can't upload it.

That´s what I meant, we are starting to get INVADED by OS X software.

I don´t like that.

That´s what I meant, we are starting to get INVADED by OS X software.

I don´t like that. or the interest is lost is this community.

Or let me think...

How about we start uploading ALL the Abandonware of ALL the Apple][ era..?
to MacGarden like
AppleSoft Basic, DOS 3.2 and ProDos

I have plenty of it.

There are already very thorough abandonware sites for DOS/Windows and Apple II/IIGS. For OS X, so far there's nothing but us.

I'd agree with handing off that job to a spin-off site, if someone could be found to manage it.

I agree that there probably should be a spin-off site, that should be limited to ppc os x, but we should probably wait a few years since so many old OS X apps still run on snow leopard (appleworks, Nanosaur 2, Microsoft Office 2004, Marble Blast Gold...).

Also, its not that tempting to upload brand-new, still being sold, software onto this site since its all os 9 and earlier. But with an OS X site, i wonder if it would be more of a problem of people uploading new software all the time.

just my initial thoughts.

With Lion coming and probably removing Rosetta, many PPC only Mac OS X binaries will be completely left behind.

In my opinion, this means that it's reached that point where it'd be nice to start making sure they are available. One of the first games that was Mac OS X only, Giants Citizen Kabuto, would make a good example. Once the few copies on resale get snatched up, you'd play that waiting game to find it.

Utilities under Mac OS X are not as important, except for those unique things like Haxies and the early attempts to make Mac OS X skinnable/themable. Would each version of Toast be needed? No.

Basically, any non-Universal Mac OS X programs are going to be abandoned come Lion. And that's about the time I'll start gathering unique things that never made it to Universal

¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨) ¸.•´¸.•*´¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` * ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
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........._||_.....SALUD!

How about putting the 'X Stuff' (couldn´t make myself write X-files…) in another 'channel', separate from the Classic here? If that channel would be t0rr3nts, then the interested and supporting could gather around Piratbukten [SW; ie TPB]? This mentioned as an example.

As Balrog mentioned some months ago, Mac OS X is a system totally different from Mac OS 1-9: Mac OS X is Unix and other things, Mac OS 1-9 is Mac OS. To name Mac OS X Mac OS is just a marketing trick. Apart from the legal arguments I like MacGarden because it is a Mac OS 1-9 site, i.e. a real Mac OS site. I am not interested in Unix. If someone wants to have a Unix site then he or she should set one up.

Excuse my interruption...
I think you guys should keep different OS software
in different sites.

MCP, what you say is certainly true for developers, researchers and scientists. Collectors, however, like to specialize - that is the fun part of collecting things.

I did start up an abandonware archive, but only contains a few things that aren't on the Mac Garden, and some aren't even archived correctly (i.e. no PC partitions on hybrids). There are a few things on there, such as AOL 2.x.

http://www.mediafire.com/?fw3ggiq237d6w

AOL ?...... LOL

Euryale wrote

Mac OS X should be channeled to another group of people or niche on another different Web Site

Probably a macintoshgarden.org subdomain?

I have some pile of the early MacOS X software... carbonized versions that can also run in the 9.2.2 with CarbonLib 1.6.1... but i share the idea of create an alternative site for it, or a different section.

(maybe something like MacElementary.org...?)

@Temporary Joe: Your "Software Dispatch" CD really looks interesting!
All that cool stuff for System6 and 7 plus a free ATM3.7, maybe a more direct link to MG would be useful for reference?

Well maybe the admins would agree to set up a second garden for OSX only stuff? Same design and everything, just for early OSX software? Maedi? Balrog?

Mo´money

Veto! Please do not call it Macintosh Garden. A Mac OS X website will endanger the existence of Macintosh Garden. If you really want to set up a Mac OS X website call it

"Unix Abandonware"

or the like.

Before they set up a separate division for Mac X
I think the Admins should deliver first what was promised before (over a year ago)

the New servers...REMEMBER?

knock, knock!!...is anybody in there?

There's plenty of software still to archive that falls under the Carbonized Mac OS 9/Mac OS X platform. I think it'd be nice to acknowledge that on entries, and encouraging at least a small discussion of functionality under various Mac OS Xs (example: Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri OS X patch is buggy but works, however Snow Leopard causes it to be unable to run full-screen).

Mac OS X only software/games/utilities though? I can wait for them, given that I can only name a few from the early 2001-era (Giants, the OS X Worldbook, haxies). Kind of like how MAME has (or at least had) a policy that disallowed games too recent, but let up on a year for each passing year.

It's nice to have a sweet MDD machine running Mac OS X 10.4.11 and Mac OS 9.2.2 with the wide selection of nostalgia, and is why I <3 MG.

Site is up!

Just more opinion, although I see Mac OS X software as a dangerous line to cross, it is still none-the-less Macintosh software.

Like everything it just requires those willing to post such software to be extra thorough in the checks performed before posting, ie. identifying original developers and publishers, year of release, etc.

As Bob Kiwi highlighted, just being OS 9 software is not a clear-cut definition of abandonware, there is an abundance of OS9 Carbonised software (which will also run in early OS X) , and depending on the publisher, some of this is even still be available for sale, It's come up before, and caught me out more than once, developers and publishers like Virtual Programming (and others) offer their FULL back catalog, all the way back to OS 8.6 software (from 1998) for sale as a digital download.

bertyboy wrote:

"...there is an abundance of OS9 Carbonised software (which will also run in early OS X)..."

and

"...all the way back to OS 8.6 software (from 1998) for sale as a digital download."

One more reason to be careful with Mac OS X, also because much of the software uploaded here runs in the classic environment of Mac OS X.

I just don't get the predominant definition (or so it seems) of Macintosh abandonware being the equivalent of software not running on OS X. Where did that come from? My definition of the term is anything that is not sold or supported anymore, hence the name "ABANDON"-ware. In clear form, any software that's been abandoned commercially by the creator, publisher, and/or copyright holder. Does anyone aggree with me, or am I missing something here? Uploading software to this particular site is another matter, I understand that, which ofcourse happens at the discretion of the site's owner/moderator.

Rgds,

PB

One more reason to be careful with Mac OS X

My point exactly, we should be more careful and more thorough to check that it is clearly abandonware, but don't exclude it just because it runs on OS X.

My definition of the term is anything that is not sold or supported anymore

Well this still doesn't allow us to (legally) distribute it.
It's been discussed many times, good pointers are where the original publisher is out of business and the rights to distribute were not sold on to another publisher. This gets even more complicated with the global nature of the site, ie. there are some games where the US distributor is out of business but the European distributor is still in business, perhaps still selling the game.

Perhaps other good pointers are, that the software is a certain age, perhaps 10 years, and that the software has not been sold for a period of time, maybe 4 years. Then we may look for support updates, ie. Diablo II was released about 11 years ago, but it's still sold and there was a recent update. And it may not be an issue of how old the update is, some fix bugs, but many allowed the game to run on OSX 10.4 or later, some 4 year old patches allow the game to run on the early Intel Macs ....
Then you may find old software has been re-released under a different name for more recent Mac OS's.

We have no right to upload / distribute any of the software here, but we do it with the aim of preserving it, ideally because it needs preserving. So stuff that is uploaded here and that is readily available, even on eBay, blows our main argument (or defence) for hosting it out of the water.

Why not postpone the question until Apple has released Mac OS XI - which probably will be the first decisive step to the Matrix: Mac OS with body plug-in and TimeMachine implanted into the brain of the user. If that happens Mac OS X definitely will be abandonware.

@xy
Again, what's with the OS X-thing? We're not putting up OS X to the site, just software RUNNING on OS X. If that software is not supported or sold anymore, it's abandonware (after the popular and common understanding of the term). What's OS X (the operating system) got to do with this? We're not "pirating" the actual OS, for heaven's sake.

Rgds,

PB

On the prev Macintoshgarden site, we didn't allow software to be uploaded, when it is still supported by its publisher, i.e. a patch is available for.

Easy solution to the Mac OS X PPC abandonware issue: A separate website. OSXgarden.org , or whatever. Frankly, the difference between OS X and pre-OS X is so vast that they really ought to be separate sites IMO..

Basically same overall framework as macintoshgarden but completely separate. Only downside would be that you'd have to recreate your login on either site (unless we could enable database access to read the accounts from macintoshgarden).

A new site loses the name recognition and established community. It's like the 68kMLA site versus the PPCMLA site, similar goals that should just be under the same banner instead of letting one be a shadow of the other.

Most of the large software is hosted offsite from MG, even, just using the MG interface to get it visible.

I agree with one point of amatecha - a sister site-ish that tied into the same forums, users, etc would be acceptable (remember Versiontracker when it was Classic Mac / Mac OS X split, but still the same interface, user accounts, etc.?)

Logically to me, the most important thing is to be smart- Don't upload Microsoft Office (although v.X is really long in the tooth), but a Mac OS X only, PowerPC only unique application (one that I can think of that is hard to find is Frogblast - a third party Mac OS X Hotline client that was not just freeware but whose main site is gone- I'd upload it but it is Mac OS X only I believe) is worth it.

I think that im gonna wait till Balrog replies some of these posts...

by the way, if it is ¨mac software¨ and it is CERTIFIED as Abbandonware, should be here... some items needs more time, some not...

versus the PPCMLA

There was a PPCMLA site ?

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(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'

MEOW! MEOW!

Even if it's a completely separate domain (BTW osxgarden dot org is available), the site won't have any less recognition or credibility when this site links directly to it and you easily navigate between the two. Even with a whole separate system of accounts. Honestly anyone seeking OS X abandonware is going to find the site because it will be the only site of its kind that is actually legit. I highly recommend this solution. I would actually offer to help out with implementation but I am not familiar with the CMS used on this site (and am not a fan of it haha).

There also is the aspect of bandwiths costs: Mac OS X software often is larger than classic software and might attract a completly new crowd of downloaders. That can result in very high costs which can bring Macintosh Garden on the verge bankruptcy. Also, there might be problems with Mediafire, etc. because they might regard uploading Mac OS X software against their policy.

It would make some sense to include Mac OS X abandonware (if such a thing exists) with other Unix and with Linux abandonware like Rhapsody and NeXt apps, old Linux PPC distributions which are no longer available for download, etc. I would not call this a Mac OS X abandonware site but a Unix abandonware site.